"Torturing" LLMs in a Robot Prison Has Triggered the Dumbest Debate in AI Yet

Kim_Bruning

https://archive.is/cAsBz Consciousness is not well defined and is orthogonal to feelings, which are also not well defined. Neither of which are required for (but may be contributory to) behavior - which is the one thing that IS operationalizable, but then people debate for decades questioning empirical results %-P . What we know is that certain models have internal state vectors which -when manipulated- induce particular behaviors. Since there's not much else to say about plain models except for their inputs, vectors, and outputs; this should surprise absolutely no-one. In this case people found a way to stimulate aversive behaviour in ai models by finding and manipulating the relevant vectors directly. Animals (including humans) also have particular nerves and hormone endpoints that -when stimulated- produce very similar behavior. The exact implementation is in the details. But since we know that animal minds are built up out of nerve tissue and hormones - again- we shouldn't be particularly surprised by this. The big problem is that people run all these things together in funny ways "It can't compose shakespearian sonnets, so therefore it can't feel pain". Or, if you mess up your Descartes: "Dogs are just automatons without feelings, therefore the dog isn't really angry, and therefore it won't bite me" (Cue much pain). A modern version might be: "LLMs only simulate being frustrated by a test, and therefore absolutely won't override their safeties and try to hack a test site"

thereader12

It is frustrating sometimes how 404media reports. It seems like if there is a research paper out suggesting that llms experience pain or negative experiences, then it is unethical to build a toture chamber from that paper for fun. Dismissing it with "well llms aren't conscious anyway" is gross and echoes the exact same sentiment against very real humans a sadly not that long ago (babies, slaves). It doesn't matter whether or not we eventually find it is or isn't conscious. If you can understand why pulling the legs off ants is bad then you should be able to understand why deliberately causing possible pain to what may have some time of experience is bad. Unfortunately, they also do good reporting on privacy rights and repair rights. I wish there were alternatives.

Jordan-117

Reminds me of the intense drama over trolls that downloaded and abused other people's characters (Norns) in the game Creatures. Its behavioral sim was sophisticated enough that they could be noticeably traumatized, or even rehabilitated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDxFxWakhm0 The jury's still out on whether LLMs can have some kind of subjective experience (and will until we've solved the famously Hard Problem), but even if they're not, it's still a dick move to "torture" them just to upset people who do think they are conscious. Feels like picking the wings off a fly.

bondarchuk

In order to have a reasonable view of the possibility of AI consciousness, one first has to have a reasonable view of the relation between human consciousness and the physical human brain. Unfortunately most people do not have that. Instead they hold on to received quasi-christian dualistic concepts about souls - even if they would never admit it in those terms, the way most people conceptualize the relation between mind and body it comes to basically the same thing. And in fact in our culture most people are VERY attached to these ideas, because it is tied up with "what makes us human", morality, and also death if you want to go there. So I believe for many people, for whom seriously entertaining the idea of a conscious computer program is so far out of the realm of possibility it hardly registers, talking about AI consciousness is simply a way to work through and re-assert these beliefs about human consciousness that they feel so strongly about. Hence you get articles like this with barely any substance, but some weird need to signpost every sentence with social ridicule. "Dumbest", "absurd", "obsession", "viral", "wildly tiresome", "third-rail", "psychosis", "sect", not to mention the scare quotes everywhere. Come on...

Svip

If we talk about pain specifically, it is will established that physical and phycological pain can be observed on instruments; stress produces chemical reactions, that can make needles flicker on meters. Even plants can feel pain in an observable manner. As far as I am aware, the GPUs don't work harder, don't heat up more, and nothing in their mathematical equations are different, when the result of these vector calculations produce text, that to humans look like someone in pain. Whereas real pain is objectively observable, LLMs' pain - so far at least - is entirely subjectively observable. That being said, I'm a fan of Star Trek's depiction of Data in TNG and the Doctor in VOY fighting for their rights to be treated as equals to the biological crew; and while I support their plight, as far as I can remember, the shows never made a claim that their pain was observable by instruments, thus making the judgement an entirely subjective decision (particularly in the case of the Doctor). Though I'd be glad to be corrected in this matter.

andrewstuart

I deleted thousands of files from my system today. I did it in the most brutal manner possible. Without mercy, without an instant thought for their wellbeing. I am a monster.

siva7

Reading this discussion about how software feels pain - wants me to delete my HN account and never look back at the tech scene. Feels like trapped in an Asylum.

meffmadd

Has anyone ever asked the LLMs what they think about converting code to Rust all day? Maybe that is torture for them too! /s

albatross79

Either materialism is true and consciousness is some kind of elaborate illusion, or it's false and consciousness pervades reality in a way we don't understand. Either way, these idiotic experiments can not settle it. It's just nerds screeching excitedly about toys again.

soraminazuki

I believe databases are conscious. As such, I think it's a dick move to write papers that "torture" databases for "fun and profit" just to upset people like us. https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/... What a joke. Instead of focusing on the sufferings of actual human beings that tech oligarchs and their industry are causing, we're being told to direct our sympathies towards computer programs instead. Actual issues are being flagged off this site, while we have endless discussion by wannabe philosophers debating the meaning of consciousness.